Matalena Leaupepe, Monika Ciolek, Mark Hollingsworth

Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment

Ian Caplin: Kia ora and welcome to the program. You’re watching G-Reg, the Government Regulatory Practice Initiative. My name is Ian Caplin and this is the G-Reg 2020 Conference. This is conference year six, but this time we’ll be doing things differently. We’ll be broadcasting the conference across 10 webinars, live and recorded, across October and November.

For those of you who are new to G-Reg, G-Reg is the Government Regulatory Practice Initiative, based here in New Zealand.

And it’s the world’s first user network for those who hold the powers of the state. It’s the world’s first professional user network for those who hold those powers, whether they’re coercive powers facilitative powers…
or anything else-ive powers. It’s very much a network for those in the business of government and the business of regulation.

You’re watching us at 11 O’clock New Zealand Standard time as you may have inferred from the promotional materials which talk about Elevenses, a cup of tea and a slice of cake.

But that may not be your current diet, because of time at the moment, because you could be watching the recorded version of this program,
or you could be one of our international viewers who we also welcome based in a different time zone. But wherever you are and whenever you are, you’re very welcome here.

The theme for this conference is the modern regulator. And as I mentioned earlier, we are across 10 episodes and this is episode two of 10, entitled ‘Collaborative’.

It follows from Episode 1 which was entitled ‘Entrepreneur’ about regulatory entrepreneurialism.

But all of these things, which we’re looking at across these 10 webinars, really go to the essence of what we say makes a modern regulator and we also say and it’s very much part of the case of this conference, that the phrase modern regulator is absolutely not a contradiction in terms.

It won’t be necessary for you to have seen episode one to get a real taste of this episode, episode two, although episode two today is very much a sequel piece.

Last episode, we talked about what makes a regulatory entrepreneur, the ideas of using one’s networks, savvy and just stretching the envelope but
if I can make a popular cultural allusion, it’s very much like the Empire Strikes Back. To get its value and to enjoy it, you don’t have to watch Star Wars first, you can watch it later. Or, in fact, not at all.

There will be an opportunity to watch episode one, and all the other episodes later on our recordings. There’s also – and this is the advantage of joining us live as those of you watching us in the live version now are, of being able to participate in these webinars, by asking questions and making comments, once our panellists or presenters have finished. So please do feel free at the bottom of your screens to register your questions in the Q&A box. But as I say in order to manage the 45 minutes that we have together, please do put them down and then we’ll deal with them afterwards. Today we’re going to be talking not about Star Wars. There’s no heavily breathing Sith Lord at the end, claiming to be your father, but it is a subject which has a level of grim reality and while there may not be a Death Star that destroys worlds, it’s not too frivolous to say that perhaps access to safer credit, which is a topic that we’ll be touching, can very much be a Debt Star for people – large, conspicuous and very much constricting the practical world in which regulated parties operate.

The story begins in very much a once upon a time way, but there are two realities – two characters – who our guests will be talking about in detail.

They’re not real people, they’re personas, but they very much encapsulate a very, very real truth and it’s a story of collaboration, a story across government, a story of outside government, and a story of working with stakeholders in in very entrepreneurial, challenging and collaborative situations.

I won’t say much more than that. And I’ll allow our guests to introduce themselves more fully and talk about what they do for a living. And this fascinating project, and I’m sure members of the audience, you’ll find it fascinating too. Monica Ciolek, Mark Hollingsworth and Matalena Leaupepe,
colleagues from the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment in New Zealand talk to us as a panel and they’ll take you through it and I hand over to them now. Team, over to you.

Matalena Leaupepe: Talofa lava. I’ll start us off. Kia ora, tena koutou katoa. I’m Matelena Leaupepe. I’m the Director of the Government Centre for Dispute Resolution and it’s been a real privilege to work with the team here on the Safer Credit and Financial Inclusion Strategy.

Part of my interest in this is that I have a real passion for really bringing people to be part of the centre of the work that we do, whether it’s policy or regulation. And so this work really played into that wish that I have as a public servant. So that’s a little bit about me and I’ll hand it over to Mark.

Mark Hollingsworth: I’m the National Manager, Consumer Protection here at the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment. The team I work in is part of the operational services delivery part of MBIE. My team is responsible for delivering information and programs to consumers to
support them in transacting with confidence and like Matalena says, I’m very privileged to be part of the safer credit and financial inclusion story so far in the context of the consumer protection work program, consumer credit is a significant issue and something that we’re investing in in our work program. So to have a partnership like this to help us to achieve that and contribute to has been pretty awesome. So hello everybody and Monika.

Monika Ciolek: Tena koutou katoa Good morning. No Hikina Whakatutuki ki ahau. Ko Monika Ciolek tene. I’m from the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment, and I’m Monika Ciolek. I work in the Competition and Consumer Policy Team. So we advise the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs on policy, on legislation and we also support the Minister to implement, to do legislative reform programs, so classic policy land.

And so there’s three of us here today from the government side of the Safer Credit and Financial Inclusion Partnership, but we’re also representing our colleagues from Te Puni Kokiri and from the Ministry of Social Development who are very busy doing operational things today, some of which come out of the work program for the Safer Credit and Financial Inclusion partnership. So they say hi and weren’t able to join us today.

I think it’s over to you, Matelena, to do the introduction but I will first put up the slides… one moment.

Matalena Leaupepe: …[inaudible]…was about Helen’s story and Danny.

Monika Ciolek: I think we were going to do the statistics first, Matalena.

Apologies. I’m just having trouble driving the presentation. Here we go.

Matalena Leaupepe: So this is the start of the story, which will go into the personas, but I think we just wanted to put this slide up here to give our viewers and our participants around the problem that we currently have in New Zealand around problem debt, who the people are who are most affected. As you can see there on the slide, we have a large number of Maori and Pacific people who are impacted by problem debt. We have issues with payments and those who are in material hardship, which comes out of their inability – it’s a part of the vicious cycle of debt – the inability to get into a situation where they are able to make regular payments, as a result of whether it’s unemployment, being on a benefit, housing or rental issues.

We saw over Covid in particular, some of the real impacts of these debts and financial hardship really come to the fore. And so, this is really
the starting point in terms of the problem definition, who the people are that are particularly impacted, both from an age perspective, from an ethnicity perspective, whether it’s single parents, from a gender perspective, how this plays out in terms of how we had to really think about the collaboration, the people that we had to bring into the conversation, and how we mapped out, how we developed a strategy, engagement and also the partnership in order to deliver the work that we’re about to talk about. So I’ll hand it over to Mark to talk about the scenarios.

Mark Hollingsworth: Thanks Matalena, and I think it’s pretty obvious that the quantifiable data in that slide

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tells a pretty confronting story and in the early days of the Safer Credit and Financial Inclusion strategy work, we added to those and drew on some work that the Ministry of Social Development had done on some personas so we had a more qualitative insight into this, into understanding hardship in New Zealand, and this is where we’ll meet Danny and Helen, we’ll talk about a little bit of their story through our presentation today. So this is Danny, and this is his story. On the advice of his Doctor, Danny recently had to give up work. Before he left work, there was not enough time to pay off his large credit card debt. With full time wage, to a benefit, Danny’s making little progress and reducing his debt, he’s only making minimum required payments and that’s getting him down. He knows that his debt’s continuing to grow and he doesn’t know what to do. This stress is affecting his mental health. Now this is Helen’s story – we’ll meet Helen.

Mark Hollingsworth: Thanks, Monika.

Helen is a single mother of two children. She has permanent injuries from a violent partner. Since leaving him, she’s achieved a degree and she’s now working. She’s now seeking work that fits with school hours. Helen has been struggling to pay off some old loans which is impacting her income and credit score.

Also, her car’s making a funny noise and she knows it needs a service as soon as possible. Without her car she can’t get to work tomorrow or do the grocery shopping, the day after. She can’t access mainstream credit due to her credit score, so she looks around her credit options online. Interest rates for a short term loan are very high but Helen needs her car fixed. That’s Helen’s story, so this then takes us back to 2017, 2018, Monika.

Monika Ciolek: Thanks Mark. So the story we want to tell you about today is about collaboration. And it’s not something which we went out looking for. It just sort of happened along the way, when the stars aligned and we see some opportunities. But where it all started was something that I’m going to talk about and then Mark’s going to take you through a little bit about how we organised ourselves to get the collaboration happening through a strategy process and then Matalena’s going to cover some of what’s going well, what’s been tricky and where to next for us.

That’s what we’re going to cover today and we’re going to come back to Helen and Danny at the end to tell you how what our work has done has affected their lives and their experiences. But right at the start. We’ve got Helen, she’s looking at her options online and she really needs to get her car fixed because otherwise everything falls apart. And she looks at her options online and she thinks, well, the interest rate is very high, but I don’t see any other options, and I can at least get this loan fast and this here is the nub of the issue that we started from. In 2017 as soon as Minister Kris Faafoi was sworn in as Minister for Commerce and Consumer Affairs, he announced that he wanted to introduce interest rate caps to make sure that the cost of high cost loans wouldn’t be indefinite, wouldn’t keep growing and wouldn’t be exorbitant to protect vulnerable borrowers and what we could see was that a lot of people actually have no options. They needed money fast in order to keep going. It’s not that they didn’t know the interest rates were high. They did, but they didn’t see any other ways forward. So as we were looking through the legislation in my team and thinking what changes would we be able to make and what would be the pros and cons of that, we were thinking about protection, but we were also thinking about people getting along with their lives and we were worried that if we took any kind of loan, short term loan off the table, what would Helen do about getting her car fixed?

So as we’re thinking about this in the background, we were approached by the New Zealand Bankers Association, who said we’d like to help crack down on predatory lenders. What can we do together?

And as the policy shop, we were delighted to be approached, and we were delighted to have this offer of working together. But we thought cracking down on predatory lenders is the job of the regulator who’s enforcing the law and it’s the job of the government of the day to think about whether the legal settings are right.

What is the role of industry here and it became clear to us from conversations with our colleagues at the Ministry for Social Development,
that the role of industry was not in cracking down on predatory lenders -that’s firmly in the government space – but rather to offer products and services that have genuine positive options for people like Helen and so that they can insure their car, so that they can get a loan when they need one, that doesn’t ruin them for years to come. So this was our question – how can people make good choices when all they have are bad options, and we took that to industry and said ‘is this what you’d like to help us work on’ and we were, we were stoked – they said, ‘Yes, we would like to think about positive options.’

So, together with the community sector and a range of other organizations we held a forum generously funded by one of the large banks and they lent us their event management people, we put it on in South Auckland and it was all about thinking about what can positive options be? And so that was the financial inclusion industry forum in 2018.

Monika Ciolek: There were four streams of thinking. One about cars and car finance thinking about Helen’s situation. One about transactional accounts. One about savings and how to encourage those who are able to save to put away money for a rainy day so that they don’t have to get emergency loans and they’re in a place to cover their contingencies. And then one about low cost, no interest, and low interest loans and access to those.

And so there was lots of organisations, 8 organisations who helped us put that day on. And we all took different roles. Some of us paid for the catering, some of us paid for the facilitators, others organised a venue and there was so much energy on the day it was great. Many, many ideas and lots of enthusiasm for working together and then industry and community sector said to us, right, what do we do with this wonderful list of ideas? How do we pick these off and prioritise them? What are the government priorities, they said, in this area and we looked at one another, us government folks and said: ‘Oh. We don’t have any. But why don’t we work together with everyone who was at the Forum and others, to set some shared priorities in this space?’ We realised we had to get more organised than we already were.

So I’ll hand over to Mark to talk a little bit about how we organised ourselves in order to take forward all of the ideas and energy that had been growing in 2018.

Mark Hollingsworth: Thanks, Monika. So, the next stage of the, of the journey so far with the Safer Credit Financial Inclusion strategy and indeed the partnership was to create, I guess, this overarching collective and integrated strategy across all of the partners from the financial inclusion industry forum and I guess it was about creating this formal partnership between government, private sector, NGOs, community representatives.

You know, Ian spoke earlier a little bit about, you know, in entrepreneurial ways, well, I mean, it certainly felt pretty entrepreneurial to us at the time in terms of setting this collective strategy. I think that when you consider all of the various lenses from regulators to community agencies to various government agencies to the banks are part of this. It felt pretty, pretty overwhelming at first. We thought, well, how on earth are we going to do this. So we did this, I suppose in one sense, a reasonably straightforward strategy and planning process, but equally, as part of that we brought 80 people from around about 45 organizations together to do this. So creating a strategy and plan within one organisation,

I’m pretty sure, as everybody watching will know, is challenging in itself, but across 45 there were certainly many lenses that meant that in the background, we were having, you know, probably

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10 times as many conversations as we were in workshops that we set up.

So the way we did this, we set up a series of workshops that we invited those 80 people from the 45 organisations to contribute to and those workshops had six specific objectives, which were, I’ll just quickly run through them. We really wanted to agree a shared aspiration say, for credit, an anchoring vision, I guess.

And so our anchoring vision was that we wanted people and whanau thriving and able to meet their needs and achieve their aspirations, free from problem debt.

So, to get there took a little longer than you might think. I guess it goes back to the many different lenses and individual perspectives. So we first of all, we agreed on our anchoring vision and we then went on to build a shared understanding of the needs and preferences of low income New Zealanders. We talked a little bit about Danny and Helen earlier, and Matalena presented the slide on understanding hardship in New Zealand. So this was a little bit about, I guess, collective empathy and we all, like I said, we have many different lenses here, but a collective empathy and a whole of system thinking based on the journeys that people go on. It’s sort of really important to get the wheels turning on this collective and integrated strategy. And once we looked to do that, we progressed on to the third objective, which was to agree on work program and which we all wanted to focus on the range of needs for access to safer credit and think about the gaps that exist when new products and services might be required.

So this was really about acknowledging a lot of the work that was already happening. But equally, where are the gaps between that and how between us and the many levers that we can pull, can we pull that together. So that really helped for all of this whole program to be a much more collaborative and integrated action plan, work program. I think, even coming back to – just thinking about safer credit, I can recall some of the early conversations and the wording in this being about safe credit versus safer credit. So even different lenses on that, you know, really took some time and some conversations in the background to help to progress.

The fourth objective was about helping us to agree our collective strengths and resources that we could bring to enable us to achieve this shared aspiration. And so this is really about with the breadth of partners working together here, some of whom aren’t sort of natural bedfellows, I guess.

It was really about helping us to understand our various roles, responsibilities and strengths. All the many levers that we had between us, that we’re able to respond in context of our action plan and the last two were really just about thinking about, well, once we had a strategy and work program mapped out, we really wanted to think a little bit about, well, we’ve progressed from what Monika was talking about after the financial inclusion industry forum, to how we’re going to do this.

So then we put the strategy and action plan and draft action plan in place and then we’ll need to think a little about the last objectives we actually need in place. How are we actually going to work together here to make this succeed?

And then the support systems and structures. I mean, things like governance and management of the whole thing required to support it. So that was really about accountability and collectively – collective accountability – to each other and then systems and processes, we were able to challenge each other appropriately. Because, as you can imagine, between some of those partners, and I guess in many ways, the banks and some of the community agencies, they were somewhat difficult conversations. So we really wanted to help have a structure that we were able to challenge each other appropriately and government, government programs actually happen to be collective, so they were our objectives for our series of workshops and all the work wasn’t done necessarily in the workshops. There was a lot of in the background discussion, particularly with the banking sector and with the Ministers. I think as part of that as well as the Ministers were keen that this was departmental led. It wasn’t to be to be Minister led. So that was another perspective in designing our strategy and governance structure. So, that took us some months, up to a year to get there. And we’ve recently, sort of fast forward to 2019, 2020 and it’s really about putting this actually into formal action and that comes with challenges and opportunities.

So Matalena is going to talk a little bit about that, where the rubber hits the road and the action plan is in progress. So over to you, Matalena.

Matalena Leaupepe: Thanks Mark. So what are the challenges and opportunities of partnership?

Really this SCAFI partnership provided an opportunity for a diversity of voices to be heard in the work to alleviate problem debt.

And one of the challenges of diversity, however, is ensuring that inclusion is also occurring through the creation of a common language. And I would say that this was partly achieved through the development of the strategy and action plan.

And also the creation of a mechanism with different perspectives and sectors could interact, which we were able to get those different perspectives through the partnership. The next slide, [inaudible]. Really, it’s a complex situation and partnership that interlinks at a very different level. So the partnership provided a space with both banks and regulators of banks,[inaudible] to learn who is offering what services and how is that impacting on people on the ground and this led to some interesting tensions and so lenders, for example, discussing issues that might be sensitive to the ears of regulators; different banks in the same room pose challenges around competition and commercial sensitivity.

Service providers potentially raising concerns and issues while their funders were in the same room and it made it important to create a safe space where partners can discuss issues without [inaudible] consequences. I think one of the unique features of this partnership was the place given to challenge partners who were deliberately invited to provide a voice for the community or the client experience to keep the SCAFI work focused on the people that it was designed to serve.

And so the diversity of interests, of industries, interest groups provided an opportunity for an intersectionality of perspectives to occur, from advocates presenting with this…[inaudible] to the interplay between policy, operations and regulation, all helped to paint a more nuanced picture of the complexity of individuals’ and communities’ experiences of economic hardship.

I would say one of the key drivers of the partnership and I think what kept partners engaged was the knowledge that none of us, none of these groups or communities, can combat problem debt on their own. It had to be a collective effort.

In the next slides, just some learnings and takeaways. There’s some things that worked, there were some trade-offs and some things that haven’t yet worked. And as I mentioned before, there was something that[inaudible] …policy and operational issues and having these regular conversations with different sectors that would not normally be in the same room together, [inaudible] During the SCAFI partnership it was particularly effective during the four weeks of lockdown where we were able to Zoom together every week. [inaudible] … issues like the elderly, not having access to online banking or hearing issues from the community…[inaudible]…alluded to before, these conversations and these multiplicities of perspectives can create…

Matalena Leaupepe: trade offs with the regularity of meetings. We didn’t always, weren’t able to have, the seniority of participants, the people who [inaudible]

…what could be publicized versus what people were comfortable with, and what they’re not comfortable with. There were things that we set out in this partnership to achieve that I think it will come into

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fruition later on, and maybe Monika [inaudible]… is resourcing and competitive tensions. One of the challenges of this type of work is monitoring and evaluating collective impact [inaudible] there are so many different partners with different drivers and different perspectives.

A lot of us working on this, we call ourselves the backbone team, are having to do this over and above, a lot of our day jobs as well. So trying to find resourcing to really commit to this piece of work is something that is work in progress, but if I could emphasize with complex partnerships like SCAFI, the diversity of perspectives can create tension and discomfort, but this is needed, and it’s important, but it does require partners to be patient and to trust in the process.

Have some courage to sit in the discomfort without rushing to fix or sweep disagreements under the carpet and I think we’ve all learned to the partnership some humility to learn from the mistakes, knowing that when we were [inaudible]the issues that you saw in the first slide from different perspectives, we’re all actually working towards that shared goal. And that’s why it was important to have that common language, which was created through the work around the strategy, really creative people and providing a mechanism where people and whanau have clear pathways and access to financial and non financial products, services and support that are affordable and appropriate [inaudible].

Monika Ciolek: Ian, did you want to do the questions now? And then we wrap up with Helen and Danny, how do you, how would you like to play this?

Ian Caplin: Well, I think what I’ll say Monika first of all, is thank you all very, very much indeed for an excellent and provocative presentation and I can already see on my screen lots of questions coming up. I’m anxious to know what happened in the end to Helen and Danny. Before perhaps you give us a, sort of, the epilogue, to that though, I will just ask our colleagues who are watching to keep pumping those questions in and then to give me a headache, by voting on them because that’s where I see on my screen the questions being democratized and whizzing around according to the votes. But while that’s happening, perhaps Monika and colleagues, what happened in the end to Helen and Danny or those who have their positions?

Monika Ciolek: Sure. So I’ll go back to our wee PowerPoint again just to reacquaint you with the situations that we started with. So we covered quite a few years since then. So, Danny. This is what Danny says, I’ll let you read his speech bubble there. So what’s great that’s happened for Danny and which has been happening under the umbrella of the SCAFI Safer Credit and Financial Inclusion Partnership is that banks have been proactively contacting customers where they noticed that the situation has changed, or if they notice that they’re only making minimum repayments on their credit cards and working with them to, for example, in Danny’s case, change the credit card into a personal loan which has a much lower interest rate, so that he can actually make progress with the same repayments.

He can actually be paying off his debt, rather than seeing it accrue and they’re also working in partnership with financial mentors to refer people to work warm referrals of customers on to where they see that they could have some support to reach their money goals or to manage on less.

And they do warm referrals to financial mentors from two major banks and will come online over time. So that’s Danny. Helen, you’ll remember, had left an abusive relationship and had old debts that were affecting her credit rating and was needing to get her car repaired urgently.

So the cool things that have happened for Helen were that the banks have been working actively with the Reserve Bank around what documentation is required to open an account, which meant that they could do exception handling procedures for Helen when she was leaving her relationship so that she could quickly set up her own account as she was splitting from her partner and get control of her finances that way.

She was able to talk to her Whanau Ora navigator, which is a special kind of social worker in New Zealand that works specifically with families around their aspirations and helps link them to support. So her Whanau Ora navigator has been trained by financial mentors about their networks and was able to link her in to get a low cost loan to consolidate her old debts.

And so now she’s feeling on top of her finances, which is awesome.

Ian Caplin: Effectively, a happy ending, or at least as happy an ending as we can have in this sort of story.

Monika Ciolek: Yes, when we’re just talking about debt. There are some really concrete steps that have been able to happen to support people to manage debt and not fall further behind and to start working towards what they want, rather than just trying to meet what they need and their daily needs.

There are a couple of other things in the pipeline that we’re excited to share with you that are happening. So, in the background, this year as part of the Covid recovery budget bid in MBIE – so my Ministry and the Ministry for Social Development, who we’ve been working with, were successful in getting a joint funding approved to keep debt consolidation loans in the community in some organizations who were looking to close because they’d run out of funding but they’ve been able to keep them alive for a couple more years, and also design a national debt solution service, which can meet community needs across the country rather than this small, more localized debt consolidation and support services that
currently exist and can’t keep up with demand. So we’re working together on that as of March. There’s also a trial that’s been underway for the last couple of years in Porirua around communal savings – where a savings pool – and they’re learning a lot about how to support people to save when their perspectives on money are not individual, like a Pakeha – white European New Zealand perspective, but a communal perspective on money and so they’re learning a lot there and they’re looking for partners to expand their trial if anyone’s keen. And finally MBIE and Wakakotahi, which is the Transport Agency and Auckland Council are working together to stand up a trial to disrupt dodgy car lenders.

So just a little bit of background. For a lot of families, a car is their biggest asset and it’s bought on debt and sometimes all they can afford is a not very good quality unsafe car which breaks down a lot and needs high cost loans in order to get it fixed. So, Helen’s situation was something that we were keen to try and address and a Financial Services
Federation worker had this idea that we could disrupt the predatory car lending market if we leased vehicles to people and the lease price was affordable and also included insurance and maintenance. So they had a good quality vehicle that didn’t break down, that didn’t have the family in debt and would be really safe on the road.

Ian Caplin: I’m going to jump in there Monika, because that is a happy ending, and we’re about to come to a happy ending in five minutes. So I would like to just give effect to some of the questions because

Monika Ciolek: Oh sorry, Ian.

Ian Caplin: No not at all. Absolutely. I think there’s a lot in there and I know the audience from the questions that I can see, can see there’s a lot in – it’s a multi pronged set of problems – it’s clearly a multi pronged set of solutions where just one agency acting alone isn’t the answer – one agency simply can’t act alone.

In terms of regulatory practitioners, the majority question here is, I can see, what are the key capabilities, briefly, Monika, for public servants to be able to work in this collaborative way?

Monika Ciolek: Good question. I think it’s has been for us about being open to doing things differently among the public servants, it’s about
good EQ – Emotional Quotient – in the sense that we need to understand what the stakeholders are worried about and what would help them feel safe and how they can work together. So helping them not be positional has been really important and Matalena, what other things would you say?

Matalena Leaupepe: The question was around sort of what could public servants learn how to do this thing better. I mean, I would say learn from

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Monika. Monika, my colleague here on screen, is probably one of the most capable public servants in terms of her ability to engage stakeholders.

While we’re talking about actually working on the partnership, a lot of the work that was happening in the background is one on one catch ups and meetings with stakeholders to do what Monika was saying, understanding the needs, the risks, the fears that people have, in terms of working together. I think as a public service, we really need to get out of our comfort zone. We really need to learn that we don’t have all the answers, and before, you know, when you ask the question, don’t come up with the answer already, actually be open to the possibility and the fact that actually the solution will always be better if you were listening to, to all of the different perspectives. It’s really difficult to sort of
then weave them together into something that suits all but I think the number one thing is to actually sit back as government as public servants and try and listen first before jumping to solutions that will…

Ian Caplin: Be a good listener. And don’t give up effectively. I mean, I guess, a counterpoint to that is, if the industry and we’re asked here, hadn’t approached us to start with, do you think you could have done anything to bring them to the table – was their initial willingness and enthusiasm, an essential ingredient. And how did the NGOs help, I’d add to that.

Monika Ciolek: Yes. I think the industry willingness was an essential ingredient. The industry is really big and diverse and has very different
levels of power and voice. It would have been hard to build that coalition on our own. We needed that leadership from industry to come to the table. It helped that there was a banking Royal Commission in Australia at the time. So there was a strong interest from businesses to show that they were part of a solution and not part of the problem.

Ian Caplin: And we’re going to leave it there, that’s a nice way to end it. Monika, Mark and Matalena, thank you very much indeed. And clearly, members of the audience, we can see all sorts of things that we can
distil about entrepreneurialism, about collaborative working together across the public sector, across the private sector, in our own networks – how might that apply to you?

What can you take away from this? There is, or there is at least about to be, a poll that we’ll just put out on this webinar.

In fact, two questions that you can answer – one about the general nature of G-Reg and what you’d like to see more of, and also whether this webinar’s inspired you to be more entrepreneurial or collaborative in your dealings. In the closing seconds, I look at a commercial break and
just advertise the G-Reg website. If you want, for example, to be an assessor of our qualifications, I mentioned the G-Reg qualifications.

They’re available for those who are interested – and people who can assess – those high level qualifications that’s levels four and five. In terms of regulatory practice and management there.

I’d also mention that looking generally, or if you have any comments about our work here at G-Reg or these webinars, please do get in touch with us on the website. We’ll be here the same time next week. I stand corrected by one kind correspondent today. It is in fact New Zealand Daylight Time rather than New Zealand Standard Time. Which probably explains my behaviour over breakfast and my inability to regulate my family in relation to it. So I’m very grateful for that correction. In the meantime, from all of us here, until next time, ka kite ano and stay well. Thank you all very much.